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VIKINGS NEWS –
The Vikings have a quick turnaround to get the sour taste out of their mouth from yesterday as they play the Chargers on Thursday Night Football.
Mailbag: Fans’ Reactions to Vikings Loss to Eagles; Quick Turnaround Necessary
Will Reichard is looking good so far this year at least, Missed Offensive Opportunities Undercut Vikings Against Eagles
NFL News –
Media Selection
I am still salty about this team
New thread up. Have fun
Which side of the International Dateline do you live in?
Sam fumbles for a scoop and score.
It’s a game again.
Yup.
They get the ‘honor’ of losing to the Dodgers.
Nah…Jays in 7. Home field advantage wins the Series.
That Shohei Ohtani is pretty good.
Way Good.
And Seattle gets a flag for spiking the ball over the goalpost to celebrate a TD. 15 yards for ‘Unsportsmanlike Conduct’.
What have they done to my NFL???
Does the word “pussified” mean anything to you?
Yes, it often describes ‘other men’.
Man, if Cousins gets the start against the Dolphins…
‘Man, if Cousins gets the start against the Dolphins…’ then the Fins might get their 2nd win of the season???
#grin
Could…
Baker Mayfield and the Bucs offense have been very good this year, but at halftime he is 9 of 16 for 47 yards and an interception. Tough night so far for a good QB and a good offense.
The Bucs are a good team. The Lions are pretty stout.
I think the DB had more possession of the catch than the WR.
Yup, interception Detroit.
I would love to see one of our DB’s close enough to a WR to do such a thing.
Fumble Tampa.
This game is becoming less and less interesting by the minute.
Tampa is still fighting, but the Lions defense is killing them.
Gibbs up the middle for a 78 yard TD.
Between the tackles for 78 yards.
Someone eff-ed up.
Yep
Wow…
Doug Martin, a former All-Pro running back with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, died in police custody early Saturday morning following an incident at a residence in Oakland, California, police confirmed Monday.
Oakland police reported that officers responded to a call about a break-in just after 4:15 a.m. Saturday and encountered Martin.
“Prior to his death, Martin was involved in a break-in at a residence in Oakland,” according to a statement from the Oakland Police Department. “While responding officers were attempting to detain him, a brief struggle occurred. After being taken into custody, Martin became unresponsive.
“Paramedics responded to the scene, provided medical aid, and transported Martin to a local hospital, where he later died.”
Martin was 36.
Oakland Sucks.
My Brother is an A’s fan and we have argued about this.
Heard some things…
“I can’t breathe!!!” ……riots soon
I once heard that people on PCP can die if handcuffed and hog tied.
In prison every inmate that is handcuffed during a riot has to placed in the ‘recovery position’ on their side.
Positional Asphyxiation is an actual thing.
I’d think that would be covered in police training… but maybe not.
Mayfield 6 of 12 for 18 yards…
Bucs stopped the Lions on 4th and 2, with Goff going for the end zone, and overthrowing TeSlaa.
Lions up 7-0 after 1 quarter.
Lions moving the ball at will pretty much. Goff 7 of 8 for 130 yards and a TD in the first quarter.
Nice to know Vikings aren’t the only team that can’t cover wide receivers.
Technology advertising is inching its way up on my annoying meter.
So far the Lions defense is completely shutting down Mayfield. He’s completed 3 of 4 passes, but for only 9 yards.
1st Injury Report for the Chargers game.
The Vikings did not actually practice on Monday, so this report is an estimate of their participation had they practiced
Ahhh sooo… no report on Wentz’s ribs.
The Shoulder Bone is connected to the Rib Bone….ect, ect.
No report means it doesn’t exist and is just a made up excuse.
No idea what happened here…
Someone was upset at that last 3rd down pass that iced the game for the Poopeaters? Then used inappropriate language to express themselves??
I’m sure alcohol had nothing to do with it.
Minnesota nice?
So the Vikings had a player lay down in front of the center in an attempt to half the tush push. I was it once and it didn’t work, did they try again later with some success??
Twice I believe.
It at least “slowed them down” and made it more difficult.
Looks like they were called for a ‘false start’ on the other attempt.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/1oavqg4/highlight_eagles_called_for_false_start_on_tush/
Ah yes, you’re right
Who Me??
‘Don’t worry I won’t let it go to my head’.
Fessik, The Princess Bride
Princess Bride auto-rec
‘Princess Bride auto-red’.
Auto-Rec.
I believe the left guard leaves a half count early, every time they run this play.
Is there a trade window still open?
What’s the chance of picking up an adequate CB capable of playing man coverage.?
The trade deadline is at 4 p.m. ET on Tuesday, Nov. 4.
Usually you don’t trade a good CB unless it’s a contract dispute, or an unhappy player looking to move on from an organization.
Did you see our CB’s play yesterday. How about just an “average” one?
I simply cannot forget that last 3rd and long play we gave up.
Yeah, tough to find shutdown corners though. Diggs is known as a great corner in Dallas, but I swear to God he grabs and holds receivers on every single play. Don’t know how he gets away with it.
Once you have a couple great corners, you keep them.
Wentz’ answer when asked about throwing interceptions…
Yeah, awkward question to answer. Sometimes the simpler the better.
At least the T’wolves are back as of Wednesday.
debating paying for the app to be able to watch them…
the only real minnesota winners
They are on Fanduel.
but i have to pay for that
The modern NBA is as bad to watch as the modern MLB for me.
(My wife is right….I’m becoming an old curmudgeon.)
I think it has gotten better over the last few years, now that LeBron is no longer the focus of the league.
For me it’s the constant 3-point hucking.
NBA was more fun with big guys down low.
Also, the numerous fouls gets old.
You should try watching a T’wolves game. They do shoot a lot of 3s, but they are fun to watch. They actually play good defense.
I have the last couple of years. Their defensive domination of the Nuggets in the playoffs was very enjoyable to watch.
The other games it felt too much like I said above.
I watched one NBA game in it’s entirety several years ago.
I don’t remember the teams, but it was like a 40 point lead at the half.
The other team ended up winning.
Total waste of time to watch until the 4th quarter, and maybe even up to the last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter.
So kind of like Denver/Giants yesterday?
Yes.
But triple the points.
So is hockey, but I think the Wild have already been eliminated from playoff contention.
even when the wild make the playoffs, it’s as good as being eliminated from the playoffs
I went to the game in Philly on Sat night.
They missed two wide open shots to win it in OT.
They lost.
Now my brother says he wants to go to a game with me Saturday in the Cities.
I’m on the fence.
Also, the snap that “went over Wentz’s head”, hit him on the hands. I’ve always told my kids, if the ball hits you on the hands and you don’t catch it, that’s on you, not the person throwing it.
Maybe we should bring in Wilt Chamberlain to play QB.
“Anything you can touch, you can grab…”
Lance Allworth.
Lots of stickum.
Seems like that would make it harder to throw passes.
Not only was that snap BAD, I think it was snapped before it was supposed to be. Wentz wasn’t even looking for the ball!
AWS being down is killing my productivity.
is it really putting a cramp into your snapchatting?
Of course. Whatever snapchatting is.
i was watching a world news thing and it said the snapchatters and fortniters are all freaking out
That’s funny. It appears to be fixed for now. I can get into my Amazon seller account at least.
There’s a question going on below regarding KOC changing our offense the last few games. I’m not sure if he did or didn’t but wonder about this offense in general.
We run Sean McVays passing scheme basically. As I understand that, most of the times you are running five man routes “trying” to force the defense to cover the entire field – all nine areas. Thus you are running various levels of routes on every play.
Now this is NOT a Cousins plug, but go back to 22 when KOC got here. We had a shitty line, Cousins got hit a lot, we still threw deep a lot, BUT there were also a lot of underneath passes, thrown quickly, to TE’s and Backs. So those route concepts were part of the scheme and have always been there.
So has something really changed.
I believe the biggest change may have been route progression in the reads.
Actually see below someone provided an article where we have added RPO’s with quick routes. Still, if the former schemes had shorter route alternatives why not just use them – the QB I mean? Let’s face it, we have had poor offensive line pass blocking for years. That’s no reason to change.
Well five wide isn’t a standard set, but having at least 4 options in the passing game is standard for pretty much every NFL offense, and five if the RB is utilized. I’ve actually seen teams run plays where there only two receivers out in the pattern though with “max protection” sets. Sean McVay is always looking for a numerical advantage on the field. That is also true of all NFL offenses. It boils down to the strong safety for the most part. Wherever he lines up, you move the formation to create a numerical advantage opposite of him. The middle linebacker defines the center of the defensive formation, and is the marker for where you divide the field in half as a quarterback. McVay usually wants the QB to see the safety alignment and work one side of the field or the other based on that. His route combinations are meant to give a QB two options on each side of the field for the most part. He has a four verticals call in the playbook, but he doesn’t call it a lot. He likes crossers, and so does KOC. The problem is they take time.
When Brady went to Tampa, Arians ran a very aggressive passing offense, with a lot of deep ball calls. The problem was Brady was getting sacked every other play. Brady went to Arians and basically implemented the scheme he ran in New England, and they won a Super Bowl.
Having a guy in the flat or over the middle short was Brady’s secret to his success. He knew he could get the ball out to someone on every play. Brady was one of the most disciplined QB’s ever. He liked going deep if he could, but he took what the defense gave him.
Got all that.
The point was the basic passing scheme that McVay/KOC use has shorter routes for the QB to take on just about every pass play. As such, why would we need for KOC to change or shorten his pass routes?
KOC’s scheme loves to feast on the long crossing routes. It takes advantage of having good, quick WRs by beating man coverage with a throw leading the receiver, and it takes advantage of zone coverage by finding a window to throw in eventually.
However, these routes also take time to develop because they’re across the whole field. Also, the WR isn’t often looking right away for the throw because they’re looking at the defenders in their path (looking for a window to be ready) or looking for other receivers to “rub” against as they do a crossing route from the other side.
It’s a route that’s not meant to be thrown to quickly, like a slant would be.
Yep.. 100%
Well to my original post. How did Cousins and Darnold who also played behind crappy lines, run the offense without the need for a change. And both of them put up big numbers.
Of course KOC loves deep developing routes. But there is also a short route available on every play.
Cousins spoke to this several times in interviews. When do you hang in there and wait for the play to develop, and when do you cut bait and progress. The time to make this decision is milliseconds. He took a lot of hard hits waiting for plays to develop, but he also progressed and hit the 2nd or 3rd guy a lot. Just the instinctive sense of when to wait, and when to progress.
Well. hallaleuja an honest answer.
The truth is the QBs on this team aren’y experienced enough. fast enough processors, or simply talented enough to run KOC;s offense as designed.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this offense, even with crappy offensive line play, that the right QB can’t run.
KOC definitely wants to run his adaptive route running scheme, where the receivers read the defense and adjust their routes on the fly. This scheme requires a QB to not only see the defense, but simultaneously determine the receivers expected adjustment. This is really high level processing in under two seconds.
Good question. Darnold also held onto the ball forever last year, and many times seemed “indecisive” as well.
The Vikings had the highest “pocket time” in the NFL last year at 2.6 sec.
The Vikings also had the 5th highest pressure rate in the NFL last year at 24.6%.
This year:
Also, here’s a fun stat for NLNVF:
True, but that on-target throw rate is affected by the deep balls KOC is wanting Wentz to uncork. He’s basically chucking up “hope” balls. Not his strength.
That said, look at how KOC ran the offense with McCarthy. He threw the ball 20 times in the first game, and 21 in the second. Wentz has attempted 142 passes in four games. Clearly KOC is more comfortable letting Wentz throw the ball than McCarthy.
Because of the numerous 3 and outs his previous offensive gameplan was producing.
I still don’t think the offense is being schemed differently. The formations and route combinations all look the same.
And this I completely disagree with.
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree until someone does a deep dive and provides proof with a video cut-up or NextGen stats-type analysis of all the plays.
I watch the all 22 of the games, and when I’m watching on TV, I’m focusing on defensive sets, formations, shifts, and routes. I don’t see any changes, just better QB execution.
Given what Cousins name does to people on this site, I included Darnold. But I don’t believe he operated this offense near as well as Cousins did. Cousins was a much faster processor from the pocket and this offense requires that. And he knows defenses.
Just for reference:
Just curious, where do those stats come from?
And just off my head, Cousins threw the ball down the field it seemed a heck of a lot more than our present guys. Is that appropriate for the time, I have no idea.
Some stat sites use the term pocket time, which I don’t know how it’s calculated. Other sites use time to throw which is the time from when the QB takes the snap to when he throws the ball. It’s an inexact measurement no matter how it’s calculated though, because there are so many factors that can affect it.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2025_advanced.htm#all_passing_advanced
Kirk’s greatest strength was his ability to read a defense pre-snap. The problem he had was when the defense disguised the coverage well enough for him to be wrong and he didn’t adjust well post-snap. If his pre-snap read was correct, things were good. JJ needs experience seeing the defense live. I think the Bears simplified their defense towards the end of the first game.
I think this is wishful thinking not factual. Cousins made reads rapid fire, said “no” to throws quickly, and took what he could. All QB’s get fooled by defensive shifts post snap at times, but Cousins usually knew what they were going to do. Against the Redskins for instance, after the game Jonathon Allen said Cousins knew their shifts and changes and called them out every single time in the game.
I don’t think you’re saying anything different than what I did. Cousins was excellent at reading the defense pre-snap which gave him a head start after the snap because he didn’t have to process as much. The problem was when the pre-snap read was completely off. In an NFL offense, the 1-2-3 read is a fallacy. Some of the reads actually take place before the ball is snapped and Kirk was great at that, but wasn’t as great at adjusting on the fly when that pre-snap read was wrong.
Well I actually think he was very good at post snap reads. Most all defenses change post snap now. I thought his problem was a bit of stubbornness and figured he could just wait long enough to hit JJ. on the deep cross. Problem was sometimes time ran out. And given our guards and center, he got his share of foolings.
Wentz didn’t lose the game, but he contributed to the loss. He also helped the team with nice throws, and some solid runs, balls of steel.
He needs to be smart consistently, the lapses hurt. I’m fine with him or JJ at quarterback.
Very reasonable take.
Yes, reasonable. Another way to look at it. We are 2-2 with a QB that was not on an NFL roster on 8/15. So lets temper the expectations
Not really. Wentz cant even hit a screen or WRs coming out open in the flat for check downs. Any College QB can hit those check downs. His arm and his brain are gone. If this team doesnt start JJ on Thursday then they need to be honest and accept they are trying to win maybe 6 games this season.
This is why he’s averaging almost 270 yards a game…
But has had two games with a passer ratings in the 60s.
Certainly interceptions are going to immediately drag that passer rating down a whole lot. Still he has thrown for almost 120 yards a game more than McCarthy, and thrown the ball over 100 times more than McCarthy.
He’s thrown 100 2 air yard passes that have gone for a lot more yards thanks to the receivers.
Authoritative data source? Thought not.
I tried looking it up, but no one keeps that stat, that I could find. But, I do have eyes and almost every pass is for less than 10 yards.
The smart money seems to be on Wentz starting 1 more game ….
If that happens I will watch (especially since I will be at that game) and cheer hard for Wentz and the Vikes. If that doesn’t happen and JJ starts I will cheer hard for JJ and the Vikes.
I have decided that I have no control or valuable input for the team regarding the starting QB….so just going to stop worrying about it.
Yes you do. The world is like that episode of the Twilight Zone where Dennis Weaver was a death row prisoner who dreamed the whole world, and he warned them that if they executed him, the world would cease to exist.
It’s up to you to take control of the dream! Vikings to Super Bowl, man!
Excellent post. Take your rec.
Just going to make JJ’s phoenix like rise from the ashes all the better. There is a lot of season left.
Amen, brother
Yep.
It is what is.
But if I’m going to get up and down play from a veteran or a rookie, I will take the rookie and see if he can improve.
I will for sure cheer for Wentz. Tough guy trying his best. Just hope to watch JJ soon.
What if Brosmer starts ?
Then I will boo and stomp my feet in protest!
It is not out of the question that Brosmer starts…Wentz took a beating…again.
I would watch that, before I’ll watch another game with Wentz at the healm.
I’ll watch regardless of who starts. And I’ll root hard for them to play well.
Regardless of record or if I agree with offensive/defensive philosophies – I’ll watch. And I’ll root hard for those philosophies to bring victory.
I’ll watch because I’m a Vikings fan. I’m 46, only got so many seasons, so many Vikings foosballs Sundays/Mondays/Thursdays left.
Maybe it’s rigged. Maybe it isn’t. I’ll still watch.
Season is wide open. Lot of football left to be played.
And I’ll be watching.
Skol
🔨🔨🔨
Good for you. I’ll watch too.
PREACH IT!!
Peace out girl scouts.
I hear you.
We have to deny what we saw with our own eyes.
Sounds similar to a former QB.
Lots of qb talk, understandable. Gonna vent for a bit. I want the vikes to succeed like the rest of yous, but it’s becoming increasingly noticeable that this organization massively effed up this off-season with the qb situation. This organization has been starving to find a franchise qb for a very long time. Now, before I go any further, I wanna say that I was happy with the McCarthy pick and really want to see him succeed with the purple. I know this is all hindsight now, but we had not one, but two possible franchise qbs in our building last year. I was fine with letting Sam walk, but it’s now becoming clear that we should’ve kept Danny dimes. This team is built to win now and after watching DJ thrive in indy, I have no reason to believe that he would not be doing that in Minnesota under KOC. I’ve read that we offered him more than indy for one year, but also made it apparent that he would be backing up JJ, no qb competition. It now looks like that was a mistake that might haunt us for a while. I would feel differently if this team was in a rebuild mode, but they are built to win now, and in hindsight, I wish we would’ve offered DJ a Baker Mayfield type of deal this past off-season.
It is okay to say they may have erred. It is one thing as outsiders to think, yeah, maybe JJ is the way to go; let Darnold and Jones go. We don’t see behind the scenes.
But if they were actually watching all of these QBs and thought JJ was the way to go…it is reasonable to question their judgment.
This is where I’m at. Every coach thinks they can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear so to speak, but I wonder about how anyone, looking at McCarthy objectively, believed he could come in and quickly run this offense at a high level.
I really think KOC knows how far away McCarthy is at this point. The only solution is to greatly simplify the offense. That’s what the Titans have decided to do with Cam Ward. He’s showed no ability to run a complex NFL scheme, so they are cutting it down.
KOC can stay with Wentz which opens up much more of the playbook, or go with McCarthy and trim it all down. That’s where we’re at.
Or KOC can do what ever we wants and we can all discuss it ad infinitum as is our wont.
You make interesting post. I’m no GM but as a business guy like to have off ramps if they are relatively cheap. If we could have kept Jones at a reasonable price, had JJ, and then had a competition and let the best man win – seems like a win/win.
Hindsight is 20/20 sadly.
But that’s not really hindsight. Lot of thinking goes into well run organizations planning for the future.
The Vikings would have had to offer Jones quite a bit to get him to stay, and I think the same with Darnold. They were both offered jobs where they were all but guaranteed to start. Yes the Colts have Richardson, but I think Jones went in there pretty confident that he could beat him for the starting gig or would see the field at some point. I think it says something that neither of those guys thought they could outplay JJ enough to realistically have a shot at playing so they took other jobs. Jones chose between Richardson and JJ on who he thought he was better than and he chose Richardson.
Well if they were told there would be no competition that would I believe greatly influence them. For sure Sam was expensive – that’s kind of relative I guess- but Jones was much cheaper.
I doubt they were outright told there would be no competition or that they would only be the backup no matter what. At the very least, if they thought JJ wasn’t very good, they would have seen that there would be an opportunity to start part way through the year if nothing else (kind of like what it was going to Indy).
This is not extreme in either end. It’s not really a question of “if they thought JJ wasn’t good enough.” More, what if he’s not quite “ready” enough and I can reasonably cover for this outcome.
Darnold at $35 million wasn’t affordable.
Jones at $20 million was doable, but they invested a 1st round pick on JJ. And already missed one year.
If you thought you had a playoff contending team, with the only doubt being a rookie QB, is 20 mil all that unreasonable to cover the risk.
The point is Daniels took less money, because he didn’t think he could beat out JJ for the starting position.
How do you know that is true?
Why else would he take less money?
Perhaps I’m not understanding correctly. Are you saying we actually offered Jones $20 Million and he turned it down to go play elsewhere.
It has been said by the “experts”, that he took less money to play for the Colts. Because he felt he had a better chance of playing there.
Correct. I think the fact that both were competitive offered contracts to stay in Minnesota and both chose to go somewhere else also shows a little what they thought of JJ’s ability to play. Even if the track was slanted towards him, if they thought JJ would ultimately fail, they would have been more likely to stick around.
I don’t know about getting inside Jones head on whether he was somehow intimidated by McCarthy’s presence on the team, and scared to compete with him. He went to the Colts and beat out Anthony Richardson who was the #4 pick in the 2023 draft, and everybody projected him to be a superstar.
I think he took less money because he wasn’t going to be given the chance to beat out JJ.
Like I said, they invested a 1st round pick and lost a year. So yes, KOC decided that he was going to roll with JJ. So Jones likely said I want a better chance at starting and went to Indy.
I think KAM offered a contract, but likely less than Indy’s $20 million. So Jones took the best option to start.
Indy paid him $14M I think.
On the Hockinson overturned TD catch.
I’m making dinner, watching plays.
I see Hock catch it and also see the ball move on the ground live.
I said to my daughter (an eagles fan), “that’s not a catch, it will get overturned.”
She replied, ” don’t be so negative”.
After the replay, she changed her mind and said, “Dad, you were right”.
We didn’t lose because of the refs.
The Vikings lost because Wentz sucked with a passer rating of 65.
Wentz collapsed in the red zone.
He is an average QB.
Explain this to me as I don’t understand the rule, From what I saw, Hock’s hands were under the ball even if it was moving, And then he came up, ball was still moving but then he secured it. I did not think the ball touched the ground, his hands did, so I didn’t think the go tthru the catch rule applied.
I saw the ball move when he hit the ground. Live. And I’m old.
The replay showed the ball move.
Two pictures.
First shows the tip of the ball on the ground.
The second clearly shows that the ball is going to hit the ground.
But I guess my question is can’t the ball move as long ias the receiver has his hands under it
The whole “survive the ground” rule is goofy. No one touched Hock. He caught the ball, and when he hit the ground, it moved. Kelce had a similar catch where on replay the ball clearly hit the ground on impact, it bobbled, he regained control, and it was ruled a catch after review. I understand the rule, but it is unfair. If you hit the ground with control, and the ball bobbles, but you regain control, it should be a catch. Just my opinion.
No. Ball can’t move.
Now, is this called correctly every time?
No.
It’s all judgement.
Apparently this call came from NY.
My issue is all the catches by the other team (Smith, for one), was the same issue, and he didn’t even have control going to the ground but yet it was ruled a catch. I don’t think that one was reviewed, but still. KOC should’ve challenged that, as it was a critical 3rd and long I think. KOC is dumb.
Why would you believe that the call would have gone the Vikings way if he had challenged it??
Evidence shows that they call whatever they want when they want to.
True, but he should have tried, then it wouldn’t even have been a “what if”. We would have more evidence the game is rigged. There has been a few instances of “should have challenged” in the last couple games, and KOC either isn’t aware or isn’t taking the risk, and that’s a knock on him IMO.
He used one challenge, I don’t remember if it was before or after, but you can’t challenge everything that’s iffy.
Rodgers signaled right away it was not a catch for the one I’m talking about. Gotta trust your players. He did that one other game and turns out Rodgers was very right and the catch was overturned.
You’re correct. Being they called it the way they did, I assumed the ball touched the ground. If it didn’t, they got it wrong.
Yeah, I agree. I said the same thing after the one replay angle.
He had the ball, but it did touch the ground. Even though he had possession at that point, it later moved and he didn’t maintain clear possession throughout the process. If he still held it in his hands afterward, that’s a catch (an amazing catch, too).
When you can’t (and won’t) run the ball in the Red Zone, defenses come after the QB. There isn’t much room for receivers to operate, and it’s just hard to throw the ball down there. Wentz threw three balls in the end zone that could have been TD’s.
I watched it today and my initial thought was no catch, what with the way he fell on it and how it moved.
Usually, balls ruled catches that the ground plays a part in securing are held out in the hands away from the body.
I even mostly agreed with the holding call on Brandel because he grabbed the guy’s shoulder pads. Fries was also holding a guy by the shoulder pads on that play.
Refs let you grab between the numbers, but if you grab the shoulder pads, it might get called.
It didn’t get called in plain sight when Dallas Turner was held on Brown’s TD catch.
True… that was a bad no call there.
It’s always based on judgement and calling things the same.
It was a hold by the rule book.
Is it called every time it happens?
No.
I agree. It is not consistent.
I also thought there was some flopping involved with the Eagles player.
Initially, I thought the call was on Fries.
I think we lost/are losing games because we shoot ourselves in the foot to often, too many mistakes. Some of those are on the players and some on the coaches/play calling. The Officials didn’t help of course.
We still have all the pieces in place to be a very good team if we could get out of our own way. Will we manage that? No idea but it would be nice to see.
Yep, they keep stepping on their own dicks.
With golf shoes.
Yowza…
The NFL is rigged garbage and I decided I’m not going to support it or watch any games the rest of the season. I hope the Vikings start JJ and see what they have, but I see no way the NFL is going to allow the Vikings to win any playoff games (if they even make it) when they continually call phantom calls and catches/no-catches are inconsistent and they always seem to help the other team.
I hate to say it, but this is the Packers year. They haven’t been relevant for a while, and the NFL will make sure to help them to keep the drunken “owners” in WI happy. The Vikings get screwed again while the NFL calls baloney stuff to help the teams they love.
And before you say it, yes the Vikings seemingly had a chance to win the game, even with several bogus calls and catches that were/weren’t for both teams (always seeming to help the Eagles, by accident I’m sure). KOC needs to run the ball from 2nd and 1 on the 6yd line, for one. Carson could’ve hit some open receivers. O-line sucks. But it does appear the NFL won’t be doing the Vikings any favors anytime soon, so it’s a waste of time. I have much better things to do for 3 hours on Sundays.
Maybe the NFL was just trying to make sure the Vikings go back to JJ because their script says that JJ is the future super star.
I do think the NFL (and the mafia) meddles with things that affect the outcome of games. Too much money, you know they do.
You know, I usually don’t blame the officials. But I was especially pissed with those two TD calls yesterday. A dL falls down and they call holding.
For most fans the Eagles and their fans are crap, but they have become the NFL darllngs for whatever reason.
That one was especially bad. I knew then that they were going to push the game in one direction.
it’s annoying we are the worst team in the division.
RECORD WISE
Well, we can still go 14-3, so that’s a positive. Also, we’re 1-0 in the Division. We can still get there.
i will be truly surprised if we don’t get boat raced by the lions both games.
Well I’m an optimist. Eagles are a very talented team, picked to go to the SB who had just come off playing two bad games. We didn’t play well on both sides of the ball – it happens sometimes.
In my opinion to get well, we need to fix two problems. Regardless of QB, fix the damn line blocking.
Fix the defense. One week we go all out to stop the pass and they run all over us. The next, shut down the run and give up pass plays all over the field. Actually, I believe Flores needs to get his act together, like KOC with his playcalling.
I am, too. There’s no clearcut leader in the NFL this year at all, the Vikings are still in the hunt.
NLNVF asked in the game thread this morning, “what does McCarthy bring that Wentz doesn’t?”
Upside, McCarthy brings upside. Wentz is who we know he is, JJ has potential to get better.
Another Question From JRobert was “If you have an unbiased viewer watch all of the games which QB would they go with?” What information is given to the unbiased viewer? Do they know that JJ was playing in his first 2 starts ever and Wentz is a 9-10 year veteran? With that information, my unbiased opinion is go with the sophmore.
I don’t care about hurting either QB’s feelings and I don’t care about next year – at this point. I only care about which QB gives us the best chance of winning the NEXT game and then so on.
To your specific question – JJ played two games and Wentz four I guess. Watch every play of those six games and who played better. Period. I believe in performance.
Film doesn’t lie a and the film doesn’t care if your a rookie or an 15 year veteran.
But the fanbase does. It’s KOC’s call, of course, but as a fan I’d rather watch McCarthy go through growing pains.
You guys like to blame the QB, and KOC quite a bit for playcalling.
How about some clips of our brilliant defensive play calls. That last one on 3rd down when we needed a stop = that was a beauty!
TWO WR’s caught 300 yards and 3 TD’s and a QB who doesn’t pass all that well had a perfect QB rating.
Went played poorly – OK. But our defense sucked when it absolutely mattered.
Let’s talk a little defense!
They held the defending SB champion’s offense to 21 points. I’d say that’s pretty decent.
You think they couldn’t have scored again if they wanted too at the end. They could throw to either of their two WR whenever they wanted too. Our corners suck.
Our defense was the only thing keeping us in the game. They only allowed 45rushing yards. Yes they got beat on a couple of deep balls. I thought that’s what everybody was saying last week. Stop the run and make them beat us in the air.
By the way, if we score TDs on half of our red zone trips, we win this game.
And we had two drops for TD’s and a TD called back for a bad holding call.
Hockenson was wide open and should have been able to catch that ball standing up instead of diving. Jets was not a drop. It was a good defensive play on a ball thrown into tight coverage.
I agree on the Jets pass break up.
This is what I was talking about in the other thread. His thinking is slanted toward Wentz. (That’s fine, that’s his opinion, but to deny it is frustrating to me.)
He says the pick-6 was a good defensive play, but the play on Jefferson in the end zone was a drop.
The pick six was a rookie mistake made by a ten year veteran. I know he’ll say he got blasted as he was throwing the ball.
He got bumped, and if he hadn’t it would have been an easier catch by the linebacker.
Absolutely an incorrect take on the first. Now the second, would say that was bad decision.
He threw it right to the defender and there was no way, even if the defender wasn’t there that the ball would have made it to a receiver.
Not a bad take, a bad throw and decision.
See it differently. the LB was on LOC indicating he was blitzing. At snap, and at same time, our guard throws an ola block and LB drops into the throwing lane. Wentz has less than second because of the rush, and believing the LB is coming, throws it.
Mistake sure, but a heck of a lot of QB’s, even experienced ones, will make that mistake under the circumstances.
Are you counting the almost-amazing catch by Hock as a drop?
Obviously, it couldn’t have been Wentz’s fault.
want a great throw, tough catch, wouldn’t call it a drop
Great point. Bang bang on the field and I felt like he ultimately secured the ball.
Tough play to make.
Yes… it was a very close call. That catch has been made many times in the NFL BTW. QB’s benefit from great plays by receivers. Not every throw is gonna be perfect.
We also had an intentional grounding, that probably would have been a TD if he throws it to Ham. We also have a TD if he hits JA in stride instead of 2 yards behind him.
Ummm he made three TD throws, and he’s about to get sacked and you criticize him for getting rid of the ball? Sometimes you don’t make sense.
Guys defense matters and EVERY play counts. It simply doesn’t work to shut down two running plays an d then give up a 50 yard pass, Then shut down two running plays and then give up a 40 yard pass.
We win this game, regardless if one says Wentz played like crap or not, but for a bad holding call and the Hock reversal which I still don’t understand.
We’ve had this discussion many times. teams win and lose games, not individual players. Bad play calls, bad plays, bad luck, bad ref calls, or whatever, all play into the outcome of a game.
People want McCarthy who has a 25% bad throw rate, over Wentz who has a less than 10% bad throw rate.
Is what it is.
Do you think McCarthy’s bad throw rate will improve over time? Or, do you think Wentz will improve over time?
Wentz is playing decently, not great at this point. He’s still hurt, which apparently everyone forgets, but he’s hanging in the pocket, taking hits, and delivering the ball. This is what KOC wants. I don’t think McCarthy is built for that though. His bad throw rate is definitely part bad mechanics, so yes, his bad rate throw will improve. I have to highlight that at 22 he is a long way from being a competent NFL QB.
And McCarthy was hurt for a good portion of the Falcons game, but apparently that excuse only goes one way. Not to mention that JJ’s injury is to his ankle while Carson’s is to his non-throwing shoulder.
And ribs…
McCarthy has bad ribs? No that’s Wentz.
So a high ankle sprain is no excuse for poor play, but a sore non-throwing shoulder is? That makes TOTAL sense.
Or is it a bruise that is worse than a severe high ankle sprain?
As a former throwing athlete I would just say an injury to your non throwing shoulder will still affect your throwing. But so will a bad ankle affect throwing.
I don’t disagree with that. The stupidity here is that somebody is saying an ankle means nothing, especially for basically a rookie, but bruised ribs are a legitimate reason the veteran is deciding to lob throws into triple coverage.
I played on a high ankle sprain. It hurts. OK? I have also played with bad ribs. That affected my throwing ability much more.
I played QB in high school and college and every year I played on bad ankles. In a game, you get taped up, and keep playing. McCarthy isn’t bad because of an ankle. He’s bad, because he’s bad.
Again, this isn’t fair to McCarthy. The offense was changed after the first Wentz game. The offense did not play well in the first half of that game, but the defense was playing huge that day so people forget.
Then the offense was changed. I just want to see McCarthy play with the changes KOC made since.
Hmmmm… the offense was changed? Like all year and off season they worked on an offense, then they changed it? They threw the ball a lot more with Wentz? Yes, they did that, because of what I just stated. McCarthy throws a lot of bad balls, and Wentz doesn’t. McCarthy is severely limited in his keys and reads, and Wentz is better with those.
So if you mean they are throwing the ball more with Wentz, and being more effective with it, you are correct.
They are running shorter pass plays and getting the ball out quicker. Not running the long drawn out pass plays like they were trying in the first 2.5 games.
This is what I meant.
Well the ball is coming out quicker, and Wentz is throwing the shorter routes, because he knows what he’s doing, not because the offense changed. He’s sees cover two and he looks short. He sees cover three and he throws short. KOC wants the deep ball more though, which isn’t what Wentz does best.
BTW average pocket time (not time to throw) for Wentz is 1.6 seconds. McCarthy’s is 2.5. Almost a full second longer.
This is just flat-out refusal to see the truth staring you in the face. It’s like talking to TDS sufferers.
The offense is obviously different. You can’t even argue that. There was a major gameplan change.
Probably made a difference when Jones went out too. They don’t seem to throw many screens to Mason. Not to mention that with Wentz under center the ball ends up going 5 yards behind the RB for no good reason.
The offense isn’t different. It’s being operated better. Sorry this is the truth staring you in the face you refuse to accept.
You seriously don’t see any difference in the plays being called/ran from the first three games to the last three?
I should say first 3.5 and last 2.5.
@Apparently I’m the only one refusing to accept what’s staring me in the face.@
https://atozsports.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings-news/kevin-oconnell-play-calling-quick-game-jj-mccarthy-carson-wentz/
You’re crazy. Wentz is All Pro level and is the true future of the Vikings. Just ignore the last 10 years of his career, the fact that he played for and was let go of by half the league and that he wasn’t good enough to be on any team for training camp.
This article incorrectly surmises since McCarthy took 2.5 seconds in the pocket to throw the ball, and Wentz is not taking that long, that KOC is calling a quick game. He analyzes route combinations, that Wentz executes quickly as an example that the offense has changed. In fact, he executes the plays quickly because he sees the defense and knows where to go with the ball. Wentz sees the corner in a bad position, hits the quick throw. This isn’t rocket surgery, it’s good QB play.
This is so ridiculous. I really cannot believe you think the offense is the same.
Watch Wentz for the first half against the Bengals. It was the same scheme, and it was failing again with Wentz. KOC changed it up, and what do you know, we move the ball better through the air.
This makes total sense to me now why you defend Wentz so much. You don’t realize how much the play calling and passing gameplan changed.
It is clearly a superior QB playing and no changes to the play calls.
I get the snark, but my points remain.
Bengals actually played the quick game defensively though. They took things away with press man. You might note that. The whole thing is what the QB does based on the defense. Reads, progressions, keys, etc all get changed depending on what the defense is doing. A play is executed multiple ways against multiple defensive fronts.
But also, the point of linking the article is that I’m not the only one who noticed a change.
And I should add: I appreciate that KOC changed it up. I was saying it throughout the first three weeks. I figured he would be stubborn. He wasn’t, and I appreciate that.
Defense played great outside of three plays:
-TD to Brown
-TD to Smith
-game-sealing bomb to Brown.
Sadly those were huge plays. Needed better on those plays for sure. Not blaming the loss on KOC at all. Thought he did better yesterday. Didn’t appreciate the unwillingness to run Mason up the gut inside the 5 yard line again, but I appreciated the passing play calls.
Unfortunately, EVERY play counts. If three bad plays amount to 21 points it matters little that it didn’t take them 30 plays to do it.
And that last playcall on the huge 3rd down was pitiful.
Agreed 100%. It was choke city.
The same can be said for the 2 interceptions, the intentional grounding, the bad throw to wide open JA where he had to come back to get it, the bad throw to JA in the beginning of the game and so many more I can’t even remember them all.
What’s that got to do with the defense?
I’m just saying you are blaming the defense and saying every play counts including the 3 bad ones, but it’s not Wentz’s fault even though he had a lot of bad plays.
I’m not saying some stuff wasn’t Wentz fault. He could have played better.
But that doesn’t excuse the defense and that last 3rd down play was dogshit.
KOC sucks IMO. He gets too cute to use basic logic sometimes, which is a huge knock on his performance. Frustrating, to say the least.
McCarthy has a 25% rate on bad throws. Wentz has a less than 10% rate. McCarthy is not a better QB and this “upside” talk is based on nothing really.
Saying he is terrible is based on nothing, other than the kids first two games ever.
…with a completely different passing approach in the gameplan.
No, it’s based on his being here 19 months and still working on footwork and mechanics according to KOC. It’s based on the fact he had a year and a half to learn the system, work on the game plans, study film, sit through meetings, watch Darnold execute the offense, and have two training camps to refine his play. He has had hundreds of hours of coaching. He’s not a rookie. He’s a second year pro, who looked like a complete rookie in his two games. I was shocked at how bad he looked, and watching the all 22 I’m thinking KOC knows this kid has a long way to go. I expected much more out of McCarthy when I watched his games. He was flat bad, and I wonder how long it will take for him to be able to efficiently run an NFL offense, that throws the ball 65% of the time.
People think he has a lot of upside, but he has no evidence in his career that he can carry an offense with his brain, and his arm. He played for a college team with a great coach, who ran the ball dominantly and played great defense. That team carried McCarthy, not the other way around.
He has had like 6 months to work on his footwork and mechanics. He was rehabbing from a surgery on his meniscus until April. You say it yourself it takes time to learn to play at the NFL level all of the time, but you think JJ should be able to go out in his first two games and show he is Pro ready. SMDH
Peyton Manning was still working on his footwork 15 years into his career as admitted by himself.
Manning was one of the most prolific and accurate passers of all time. McCarthy has never been either.
Manning was horrible his first year. Absolutely horrible.
He probably shouldn’t have played.
According to some, he should never have played after his first two games.
He was, and he came from a football family, with a true pedigree of QB play. McCarthy doesn’t. You do know Manning put up great numbers in college. McCarthy did not.
Why are you using Manning as an example? McCarthy is nowhere near that level of talent.
Yeah and he worked on his footwork his entire career so saying that JJ working on his footwork in his first year as a starter is a red flag is stupid.
But Manning was always a great passer… he worked to improve his whole career too. He showed “great footwork” does not a great passer make though. Rodgers has the worst footwork ever, and he’s one of the greatest passers of all time.
McCarthy’s accuracy will improve with better footwork for sure, but it’s not like that’s going to make him a great passing NFL QB. It will make him more consistent.
You just said JJ’s footwork sucks which is unacceptable after two whole training camps. My only point was that KOC saying he is working on his footwork means nothing because one of the greatest there’s been worked on his throughout his career. Manning was not good for most of his rookie year. Nor was Brady. Give the kid more than 2 games, one of which he played a good chunk of on one leg.
What I said was, after 19 months, and two full training camps, with hundreds of hours of coaching, he is still working on his footwork and mechanics.
I see zero change in either after all this time BTW. You would think something would have improved after all the work.
How many of those months were spent in rehab? He has basically only had one training camp to relearn what he wasn’t able to do for an entire season, and yes, he is still working on his footwork and mechanics, the same as Manning and Brady did until they retired.
He’s had two full training camps Bow. Not one, two. OTA’s, rookie sessions, training camp, and practices galore. KOC changed Cousins footwork in one practice.
He has had 1.5 training camps. He was injured in the first preseason game last year.
I consider the first pre-season game the end of training camp, but OK. The fact remains he has made no real changes to date, and KOC is now focusing on it. Why? Because McCarthy’s accuracy is on full display, and he has to address it. Making bad throws on 25% of your passes in the NFL is abject failure.
No, I don’t think he should be ready already. I know he isn’t ready at all, and it will be a long time before he is. I do think footwork is something some QB’s do better and more easily than others, and I don’t worry too much about it. Mechanics is another thing. He has had plenty of practice and coaching, and he’s still making mistakes. Basic, fundamental mistakes.
So is Wentz with 9 more years of experience.
Wentz makes mostly very good plays, and McCarthy doesn’t. Simple as that.
Wonder how much Hock will be fined for this.
Not that he is wrong of course.
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/vikings-tj-hockenson-rips-nfl-officials-after-td-catch-overturned
The radio guys were ripping the officials also. They kept saying that if the previous catch on 3rd down by the Eagles was a catch, then this should be a catch. They were ripping the officials for being inconsistent.
Thanks for the new thread Bow. The old one was getting ‘unwieldy’.
And the Obligatory FTP.
Yes, thank you, Bow. I’m in Denver, didn’t get here til late last night.
Definitely from all the pressure.
I blame the coach for calling a long drawn out play.
Are you going to show every bad play that Wentz made yesterday?
I don’t think the website has the capacity for that.
Well, for the sake of fairness, you could go back to the first two games and show all the bad plays from our other QB – you could really blow up the internet then.
To score a TD yesterday, the Vikings had to get Wentz out of the way and have Mason play QB.
You’re ignoring the statement – how about some plays from the other seven quarters.
The difference is one has only played in 2 games and the other is supposed to be a vet who knows better than sending an airmail ball into triple coverage. If we’re gonna see rookie mistakes, let’s see em from the rookie who has a chance to learn from them.
Do you think the Chargers defense is going to go a little easier on us if we play a rookie QB?
Nobody cares how long you’ve been in the league when the whistle blows.
Not like the Chargers defense has been world beaters. They got lit up yesterday by the Colts.
I don’t like to play teams that are coming off a couple of bad performances.
Well, the Chargers have to play a team coming off a poor performance as well.
It’s not like we are the only ones ripping on Wentz. The radio announcers weren’t happy with him either and they are famous homers.
No kidding, it might be better to show the good plays. Fewer Terabytes.
Wentz is so broken. Has been for awhile now. The fact that the Vikes signed him shows something is very rotten here.
The thread image 😂
@That was a vet move. Back shoulder throw.@
Not too many QBs can make that throw.
@That was a wily vet play. Too obvious to throw there.@
this picture doesn’t even do it justice for how wide open Ham actually was haha